Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 07 @ 09:00 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Dark UFO has the screencaps up from the Clockwork Orange scene.
http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/02/brainwashing-scene-text.html
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 07 @ 09:06 PM
by: zenmaster5280 (420 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 23, 2005
Dark UFO has the screencaps up from the Clockwork Orange scene.
http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/02/brainwashing-scene-text.html
From wakingsleep's thread:
Here are all the messages:
1. Plant a good seed and joyfully gather fruit
2. Everything changes
3. God loves you as he loved Jacob.
4. We are the causes of our own suffering
All very Buddhist, except for the Jacob statement. Very scary way to have someone follow the path, not at all a reflective way to understanding. And that music....poor Karl.
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 07 @ 09:18 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
From wakingsleep's thread:
Here are all the messages:
1. Plant a good seed and joyfully gather fruit
2. Everything changes
3. God loves you as he loved Jacob.
4. We are the causes of our own suffering
All very Buddhist, except for the Jacob statement. Very scary way to have someone follow the path, not at all a reflective way to understanding. And that music....poor Karl.
Hi Zen, I picked up on the Buddhist concepts, too, and I found them very troubling in that context, partly because I had to struggle against being personally offended.
On a more objective note, I wonder if we can infer from this that the Others distort and abuse other philosophies and precepts to their own ends, and not just Buddhist concepts?
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 07 @ 09:30 PM
by: Little_Rosie7 (14 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 02, 2006
Hi Zen, I picked up on the Buddhist concepts, too, and I found them very troubling in that context, partly because I had to struggle against being personally offended.
On a more objective note, I wonder if we can infer from this that the Others distort and abuse other philosophies and precepts to their own ends, and not just Buddhist concepts?
I would say that Lost in general has distorted several religious concepts throughout the show, and I don't think they're out to offend anybody. Just like with the whole baptism thing and all the fights that started. To me, they were just using what seem like general statements that took on cultish meaning only because of the circumstances. I wouldn't get too worried about it. Most non-buddists wouldn't have made any connection, it seems.
Message was edited by: Little_Rosie7
just to say goodnight.
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 07 @ 09:31 PM
by: zenmaster5280 (420 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 23, 2005
It really was quite disturbing. I'm not certain as to why the Others would disrespectfully use these concepts--other than the writers wanting to portray the juxtaposition. Again, it was very offensive.
On another note, I found this bit of info on Jacob's story:
After wrestling all night, God dislocated Jacob's thigh with a touch (32:25). This showed Jacob who he was fighting with (someone with immense power who could easily beat him), and that this was a picture. God had been taking progressively more drastic steps (Esau; Laban; Esau) to teach Jacob to abandon his self-sufficiency and trust him.
Now crippled, Jacob can only hang on to God--a picture of his proper relationship with God. Now that Jacob's tenacity is expressed in a dependent posture, God blesses him (probably reiterates the Promise) and renames him to cleanse him from his old ways ("supplanter;" "deceiver") and give him a new identity to live up to ("one who strives effectively with God"). God has always been willing to bless Jacob. He has only been waiting for Jacob to ask with a trusting, dependent heart.
taken from the website: http://www.xenos.org/teachings/ot/genesis/gary/gen25-2.htm
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 07 @ 09:36 PM
by: zenmaster5280 (420 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 23, 2005
Tinfoil hat time: 2nd thought about the Buddhist concepts being used to torture Karl: What if the Others had a rift with the original Dharma Initative people?
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 07 @ 09:37 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
I would say that Lost in general has distorted several religious concepts throughout the show, and I don't think they're out to offend anybody. Just like with the whole baptism thing and all the fights that started. To me, they were just using what seem like general statements that took on cultish meaning only because of the circumstances. I wouldn't get too worried about it. Most non-buddists wouldn't have made any connection, it seems.
Hi Lil' Rosie, I agree that LOST doesn't pick sides - they seem to be pretty fair about offending folks of all faiths and philosophies.
Speaking of being offended, in this preview clip for next week's episode, does someone blow up the cow barn? What in the world is going on?!! Why does someone want to kill the poor cows?!
http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2007/02/flashes-before-your-eyes-us-trailer.html
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 07 @ 09:43 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
It really was quite disturbing. I'm not certain as to why the Others would disrespectfully use these concepts--other than the writers wanting to portray the juxtaposition. Again, it was very offensive.
On another note, I found this bit of info on Jacob's story:
After wrestling all night, God dislocated Jacob's thigh with a touch (32:25). This showed Jacob who he was fighting with (someone with immense power who could easily beat him), and that this was a picture. God had been taking progressively more drastic steps (Esau; Laban; Esau) to teach Jacob to abandon his self-sufficiency and trust him.
Now crippled, Jacob can only hang on to God--a picture of his proper relationship with God. Now that Jacob's tenacity is expressed in a dependent posture, God blesses him (probably reiterates the Promise) and renames him to cleanse him from his old ways ("supplanter;" "deceiver") and give him a new identity to live up to ("one who strives effectively with God"). God has always been willing to bless Jacob. He has only been waiting for Jacob to ask with a trusting, dependent heart.
taken from the website: http://www.xenos.org/teachings/ot/genesis/gary/gen25-2.htm
Hi Zen, I agree it was offensive. I'm hoping the writers did it deliberately as you stated for a juxtaposition effect, and not just because they're dolts.
That's a fascinating quote about Jacob. In view of what little we know or have hypothesized about Jacob, I'm wondering if Ben thinks he's God and his followers are Jacobs? Dr. Manhattan again?
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 07 @ 09:48 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Tinfoil hat time: 2nd thought about the Buddhist concepts being used to torture Karl: What if the Others had a rift with the original Dharma Initative people?
Hi Zen, if my memory is correct, I think TPTB have stated that the Others and the Nother Others are not composed of any of the original Dharmas, rift or no rift. But it's very late and I may be remembering wrong.
Regardless of whether they are true Dharmas or not, I think it's fair that they may have borrowed heavily from Dharma's "stuff." They occupy Dharma buildings, they use Dharma ketchup, etc, so it wouldn't be surprising to me that they grabbed onto some of the original Dharma philosophy and then twisted it to their own purposes.
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 07 @ 09:50 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
It's late. My tinfoil is burnt and crispy.
g'night
bg
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 07 @ 09:53 PM
by: zenmaster5280 (420 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 23, 2005
Good night BG!
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 07 @ 10:50 PM
by: lucky4me8 (75 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Drat, I missed the rest of the discussion. One thing I wanted to add: wasn't that a great scene when Kate weas telling Jack the story and Jack was finishing the surgery as fear subsided for both of them? Evie is really getting to be a good actress. Even Sawyer looked moved listening to her.
And I just rewatched the brainwashing video - Holy Wires and headgear, can someone please come out and say, "Lucky, we knew you weren't crazy going on and on about the goggles and scuba gear"? Please? I've worked so hard to try and show people this, even though no one could ever see it and everyone thought I was nuts (well, not you guys). It is very, very creepy.
Now just wait 'til you see all the kids in the jungle, not to mention the wires.
"Night, all.
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 07:06 AM
by: LncshrLassinMI (313 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 28, 2005
Goggles?? Lucky, we knew you weren't crazy, dear.
Have to agree about the pregnant sister. It will be interesting to see how they will justify that, if indeed she is also being treated for cancer. Also if the only way Juliet could get home was with Ben's help, why would she want him dead?
More questions, but a few answers. Good show.
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 08:08 AM
by: seekaterun (202 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Nov 16, 2005
From wakingsleep's thread:
Here are all the messages:
1. Plant a good seed and joyfully gather fruit
2. Everything changes
3. God loves you as he loved Jacob.
4. We are the causes of our own suffering
All very Buddhist, except for the Jacob statement. Very scary way to have someone follow the path, not at all a reflective way to understanding. And that music....poor Karl.
Good morning Joopers ! Just wanted to add a couple things here to the discussion of lastnights episode.
5. " Think about your Life " was also a message in the film. In the imagery there was a flash of Gerald DeGroot. Iam guessing that this video was from Dharma since he appeared in it. Also when Kate, Sawyer and Alex first came into the building, you could see a glimpse of a small satellite dish . This must be how they are getting their outside feeds.
Also I noticed when Kate and Sawyer were running thru the woods, several tree's had red paint marks on them. * Lucky, did you see them too ? ( It went very fast, but I slowed down the shots and you can see them ). Marked tree's like Eko did. Are they marked for a special reason ??
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 09:31 AM
by: IslandLilly (10 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 11, 2005
Morning, Joopers,
Whew! Kate and Sawyer- successful escape!
And Jack was given something he always needs:
a Damsel in Distress.
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 10:18 AM
by: captainaeon (614 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Dec 16, 2004
On another note, I found this bit of info on Jacob's story:
After wrestling all night, God dislocated Jacob's thigh with a touch (32:25). This showed Jacob who he was fighting with (someone with immense power who could easily beat him), and that this was a picture. God had been taking progressively more drastic steps (Esau; Laban; Esau) to teach Jacob to abandon his self-sufficiency and trust him.
Now crippled, Jacob can only hang on to God--a picture of his proper relationship with God. Now that Jacob's tenacity is expressed in a dependent posture, God blesses him (probably reiterates the Promise) and renames him to cleanse him from his old ways ("supplanter;" "deceiver") and give him a new identity to live up to ("one who strives effectively with God"). God has always been willing to bless Jacob. He has only been waiting for Jacob to ask with a trusting, dependent heart.
Not trying to be offensive, but that's basically what happens to the character Alex in A Clockwork Orange. Judged by society to be too violent and independant, he is brainwashed and his violent tendancies removed. This also removes his independance and he has to rely on society to tell him what to do. The difference in the stories is Jacob had a revelation, while Alex was forced to submit.
Rossini's The Theiving Magpie is playing on the radio. This song is used in ACO. How cool is that?
Message was edited by: captainsynchronisity
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 10:23 AM
by: captainaeon (614 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Dec 16, 2004
Anyone else wonder if Ethan had anything to do with Rachael's miraculous pregnancy?
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 10:38 AM
by: seekaterun (202 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Nov 16, 2005
Anyone else wonder if Ethan had anything to do with Rachael's miraculous pregnancy?
I don't know captain ? I was thinking that maybe he had snucked into Rachel's apartment, drugged her and then took a blood sample to see if she was pregnant or not. The reason I think that he did this, is because Juliet mentions to her about falling asleep with candles burning and she had some kind of oxygen tank beside her (not a good idea to take a nap).
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 10:51 AM
by: captainaeon (614 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Dec 16, 2004
I don't know captain ? I was thinking that maybe he had snucked into Rachel's apartment, drugged her and then took a blood sample to see if she was pregnant or not. The reason I think that he did this, is because Juliet mentions to her about falling asleep with candles burning and she had some kind of oxygen tank beside her (not a good idea to take a nap).
You're right. Probably just testing.
I was going to post the brainwashing scene from ACO, but it is VERY VIOLENT. I had forgotten just how disturbing it is. The movie was rated X when it was released in the 60s. Keep that in mind if you go looking for the movie.
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 10:58 AM
by: seekaterun (202 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Nov 16, 2005
Bg : 1. Did anyone catch any easter eggs (and the anagram) that's supposed to provide clues about Adam and Eve and about the unfolding mythology?
Could the anagram have been the Bioscience company, Mittelos ? Time Lost or Lost Time ? As for it providing a clue to Adam and Eve, maybe the drugs/vaccines increases or ages people and the skeletons in the cave are actually younger than what Jack had said they were ( like Juliet thought that the picture of the womb was of an older woman but it was not )? Maybe they were injected with the vaccines (produced by the company) to heal them from the damage that was happening inside their bodies but it rapidly aged them (from the outside) and they died ? Lost their lives = Lost Time ???
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 11:09 AM
by: zenmaster5280 (420 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 23, 2005
Not trying to be offensive, but that's basically what happens to the character Alex in A Clockwork Orange. Judged by society to be too violent and independant, he is brainwashed and his violent tendancies removed. This also removes his independance and he has to rely on society to tell him what to do. The difference in the stories is Jacob had a revelation, while Alex was forced to submit.
Rossini's The Theiving Magpie is playing on the radio. This song is used in ACO. How cool is that?
Message was edited by: captainsynchronisity
So in Otherville, you must adhere to their Utopian society (as in Clockwork Orange). What do they want to accomplish? Cutting edge science that is unethical--as Edmond suggested? I am still appalled at the indoctrination process.
Zen collaspes on the floor
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 11:23 AM
by: captainaeon (614 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Dec 16, 2004
So in Otherville, you must adhere to their Utopian society (as in Clockwork Orange). What do they want to accomplish? Cutting edge science that is unethical--as Edmond suggested? I am still appalled at the indoctrination process.
Zen collaspes on the floor
Not 'indoctrination', rehabilitation. Remember when Ben told AL that Goodwin thought she could be rehabilitated? I bet this is what he was talking about.
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 11:31 AM
by: zenmaster5280 (420 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 23, 2005
Not 'indoctrination', rehabilitation. Remember when Ben told AL that Goodwin thought she could be rehabilitated? I bet this is what he was talking about.
You're right! I forgot about that!
So you loose your sense of independence, and join the Others where everything is done for the Greater Good. Juliette's comments on free will, and her book club choice become all that more poignant!
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 01:04 PM
by: sweetsayid (131 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 16, 2006
hey
hey
hey joopers!
i don't know about you - but my skin CRAWLED when Ben said 'hey'
MAN can that guy do creepy!
Karl's clockwork orange room was jawdropping
all the benign images and the philosophical statements (didn't know til now they were buddhist) with the loud music was SO sinister
Could this be 'the room' that bea threatened Walt with?
Ms Klugh: Walt! You want me to put you in the room again? if the others put walt in a room like that - what kind of monsters are they?
i thought sawyers jawdropped overwhelmed reaction was really interesting
overall really liked the epi
can't tell if it was deprivation or that I LOVE THIS SHOW!
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 01:17 PM
by: sweetsayid (131 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 16, 2006
juliet arrived on the island around september 11, 2001
desmond said he had been in the hatch for three years - this means they arrived at about the same time
could juliet's arrival have had something to do with desmond's ship wreck?
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 01:27 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Afternoon, Joopers. Being that I am on the Touchstone Advisory Board, I was contacted and asked to answer a few questions about last night's episode. A live Q & A session is coming up in about 30 minutes, and I intend to participate in that, as well. Zen, since you're also on the Board, did you respond?
Here's my response to their questions.
1. How would you rate last night's all new episode compared to other episodes this season?
Compared to the first 6 epis, 'Not in Portland' was terrible. In fact, it was one of the worst LOST episodes ever.
First, I was deeply offended by the use of Buddhist imagery in Karl's brainwashing scene. While the iconography and practice of other faiths such as Christianity and Islam have been depicted in a somewhat negative light in past seasons, in no instance were those faiths associated with brainwashing and forced consumption as was Buddhism in last night's episode. I am appalled and disgusted.
Second, I was mystified by Juliet's character in the flashback. She is in an abusive and exploitive relationship with her ex-husband, Edmund Burke, so why on earth would she be so eager to tell him of her success with Rachel's impregnation? This defied logic. As for the logic of impregnating a sister who is apparently very sick, this defies logic as well, but I can somewhat accept that Juliet may have thought it was a good idea, as weird as it may seem. But is this supposed to make me like her? I don’t understand.
Third, I don't understand why the creative team thinks that infertility is an interesting storyline. While it may be somewhat interesting as it relates to the island, who cares about Rachel's infertility? Or rather, who cares about Rachel? For that matter, why should I care about Juliet? Nothing I saw last night endeared her to me. She was a victimized mess with some questionable ethics and logic. Yawn. Was her hiding under a lab table and getting caught by her ex-husband supposed to make me laugh or feel sympathy for her? I don’t get it.
cont....
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 01:28 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
cont...
2. Which characters do you find most compelling?Why?
I find Benry's character the most compelling because he's so full of surprises Also Danielle and Sayid are compelling - Danielle because she's such a mystery and Sayid because he's the most self-reflexive and honest.
3. Which characters would you like to see more of? Why?
I would like to see more of Benry, Danielle, Sayid, Hurley, Sun, Jin, Locke, and Desmond.
4. There are many questions that have not been answered. Of all these mysteries, which would you like answered the most?
• Who are The Others?
• What is the meaning of the numbers?
• What is the monster?
• What are the whispering sounds?
• What is the four-toed statue?
• What happened when the hatch imploded (sky lit up, sound, etc.)?
• What is the Dharma Initiative?
The mystery I would like answered the most is the smoke monster. Where did it come from? What is it? Why did it kill one of my favorites, Mr. Eko?
5. Are there any other mysteries that you MUST know the answer to?
Yes, I MUST know Danielle's backstory. I'm MUST see a flashback that depicts events 16 years ago when she crashed on the island. Further, I MUST know who Brennon is and why he took the key.
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 02:37 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Lucky: Holy Wires and headgear, can someone please come out and say, "Lucky, we knew you weren't crazy going on and on about the goggles and scuba gear"? Please? I've worked so hard to try and show people this, even though no one could ever see it and everyone thought I was nuts
Lucky, I'd like to believe these things you see are there, if for no other reason than it's so desperately important to you and because I care about you so much. But like Sayid, I can only believe what I can see. And all I see are the usual perception tricks the eye and brain play when one stares at something for a long time.
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 02:40 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Goggles?? Lucky, we knew you weren't crazy, dear.
Have to agree about the pregnant sister. It will be interesting to see how they will justify that, if indeed she is also being treated for cancer. Also if the only way Juliet could get home was with Ben's help, why would she want him dead?
More questions, but a few answers. Good show.
Hi LLassin, good question about why Juliet would want Ben dead if he were the only way she could get off the island. Also, what are your thoughts on her comment that "Jack would never just kill someone deliberately." Did she believe that when she was asking him to kill Ben? If so, why would she ask him?
Back to Top ^
Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
reply
Posted: Feb 08 @ 02:45 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Good morning Joopers ! Just wanted to add a couple things here to the discussion of lastnights episode.
5. " Think about your Life " was also a message in the film. In the imagery there was a flash of Gerald DeGroot. Iam guessing that this video was from Dharma since he appeared in it. Also when Kate, Sawyer and Alex first came into the building, you could see a glimpse of a small satellite dish . This must be how they are getting their outside feeds.
Also I noticed when Kate and Sawyer were running thru the woods, several tree's had red paint marks on them. * Lucky, did you see them too ? ( It went very fast, but I slowed down the shots and you can see them ). Marked tree's like Eko did. Are they marked for a special reason ??
Hi Seek, good catch about the small satellite dish outside and the Gerald DeGroot image in the video. I saw some screencaps today that show the infamous Hanso standing in the window image, as well. Both images are from the Orientation video indicating that perhaps someone did some cut and splice to make this one.
I wonder if there's any connection with the film splice that was found inside the Bible in the Arrow station.
Also, has anyone ID'd the music that was blaring in the Karl scene?
Back to Top ^
Page(s) 14 << [ 1 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 ] >>
Edit Search Topic List
Rules • Help • Thought about the boards? Notify host.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
No comments:
Post a Comment