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Forum Home Lost Lost: General JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
Replies: 1004 Last post: Feb 14 @ 03:02 AM by: back_gammon
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 10 @ 04:22 PM
by: captainaeon (614 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Dec 16, 2004
Hi Zen, hi Captain, thanks for the advice. I'll read it first, and then focus on the illustrations when I reread it, as I'm sure to do.
I added a link to The Annotated Watchmen (which I got originally from Lion) ^^^
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 10 @ 04:22 PM
by: zenmaster5280 (420 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 23, 2005
Cap!Thanks for the link, and all the Ziggy vids!
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 10 @ 04:25 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
i like this idea - it makes no demands and yet allows people to post no matter where they are in the book.i too found myself staring at the graphics - i wondered if studying them would be important to the story or should i just read it first time through?when i picked up the book at barnes & noble, i was startled by the big smiley face on the coverthe clerk saw my reaction and thought maybe it was the wrong bookwith thoughts of fenry's balloon i smiled and said 'oh yes, it's the right book!'also didn't realize that the author Alan Moore also wrote V for Vendetta - saw the movie - has anyone read the graphic novel?
Hi Sweet, I think the spoiler courtesy space will work okay, too. But I'm open to other suggestions if anybody has any.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 10 @ 04:25 PM
by: sweetsayid (131 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 16, 2006
all this talk of ben raised a questionit may have been discussed beforein the season two finale ben said to michael ". . .you're going to take this boat and follow a compass bearing of 325, and if you do that exactly, you and your son will find rescue. "could the heading ben gave michael have been in the general direction of the other's island from the pier?could that mean michael and walt were intercepted by the others and are being held on the same island as jack kate sawyer?
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 10 @ 04:27 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
I added a link to The Annotated Watchmen (which I got originally from Lion) ^^^
LOL, I'm getting dizzy. Captain, I edited my post on the last page after I saw you edited your post on the last page. Bottom line: I've bookmarked that website for later. It looks great. Big thanks to Lion, too.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 10 @ 04:28 PM
by: zenmaster5280 (420 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 23, 2005
George, Sweet is too good for you! Let her go!
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 10 @ 04:32 PM
by: captainaeon (614 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Dec 16, 2004
also didn't realize that the author Alan Moore also wrote V for Vendetta - saw the movie - has anyone read the graphic novel?
I haven't seen the movie but have read the novel. Apparently, the novel suffered at the hands of the filmmakers, and Moore disowned the movie because of it.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 10 @ 04:34 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
all this talk of ben raised a questionit may have been discussed beforein the season two finale ben said to michael ". . .you're going to take this boat and follow a compass bearing of 325, and if you do that exactly, you and your son will find rescue. "could the heading ben gave michael have been in the general direction of the other's island from the pier?could that mean michael and walt were intercepted by the others and are being held on the same island as jack kate sawyer?
Hi Sweet, great question about the compass bearing taking Walt and Michael to Alcatraz. I've never heard this before. Frankly, I have no idea where Alcatraz might be - I'm geographically challenged - but my gut feeling is that it's to the southeast of the island, maybe down near the Dark Territory somewhere. But I'm probably wrong. It would be very interesting, indeed, if Ben sent Michael and Walt on a dead heading to Alcatraz, wouldn't it? But somehow I think he's a man of his word. Wait. How could Ben give his word? He wasn't even there when Michael negotiated the deal. Oh dear....
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 10 @ 04:38 PM
by: captainaeon (614 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Dec 16, 2004
Cap!Thanks for the link, and all the Ziggy vids!
You mean Patchy vids
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 10 @ 04:51 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
BGI think your idea is really interesting. I thought that when he said 'You're talking to me as if I was your brother' he/it meant 'your brother didn't know about everything you did, but I know, you can't fool me', related to his sins in Africa, but I prefer your idea of confessing for his sins on the island. The spirit of the Island wants to be obeyed and worshipped? And punishes those who don't listen to him? But they don't know what this primeval 'god' wants and who he is. And who's supposed to be next? Locke?At that point was Eko still a threat?Is it about people who killed others? So Charlie is next then.You're also mentioning Eko's role in pushing the button in the hatch. But who gave him the vision of Yemi if not the island/the spirit? It seems that the island wanted him to do something related to that area marked with the question mark. Obviously, there is the problem of the correct interpretation of the dreams.
Hi Lightcan, you ask great questions and I have no answers. This dreaded black smoke has plagued me since last year and sometimes I wish the heck it had never appeared. It's the most confounding thing on the show. It's just so...outside the bounds of normal human experience. You've raised a central concern about the smoke and its manifestations: the problem of the correct interpretation of the dreams/visions it may be sending. If it is sending the dreams/visions and if it is manifesting as various entities like Yemi, what the heck does it want, assuming it has some objective? If one of the Losties correctly interpreted something then acted on it correctly, then what? This all has me stumped. LOL, maybe this whole show is a big elaborate game of charades with the object being the Losties have to guess what the black smoke is driving at, sort of like when Charlie had to guess what Locke was driving at when he couldn't talk. I dunno. When I rewatched "?" and "Cost of Living," I was seized with the notion that everything we've thought, posted, and discussed about the black smoke is wrong. It could be we just don't have enough of the smoke puzzle yet, but it could also be that we're chasing after red herrings when the "real" clue is right in front of us. Or maybe I'm just obsessing for nothing and we're on the right track after all.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 10 @ 09:35 PM
by: filbertsnout (12 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Aug 30, 2006
If it's the dog reference you are talking about, it does show up again towards the end of the book. There are also some very bloody pictures of a dog you will have to see about mid way through. Sorry
Hi,Thanks for the warning, I'm only about 1/3 of the way thru. I will skip the horrible dog pictures.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 10 @ 09:41 PM
by: filbertsnout (12 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Aug 30, 2006
Exactly, Lucky, the manifestation of the little altar boy pleaded for Eko to confess (go fish), but the question, which I probably didn't phrase very well, is what was Eko supposed to confess? From his perspective, in his mind, he was supposed to confess about the murders and the stealing. Those were the flashbacks and the manifestations. But what if the smoke wanted Eko to confess about something else? Maybe for interfering with the hatch and trying to continue pushing the button? For someone who died as a result of Eko's actions on the island? I know this all sounds crazy, but I'm suddenly rethinking what the smoke is doing and why. I believe it's a security system, I trust Danielle, so what is it protecting and what would it stand to gain from Eko's confession about things that happened off the island? This doesn't add up to me and I'm just trying to sort it out and see other possibilities.
Brings a few questions to my mind:Why would the smoke (or the "person" controlling it) need a confession? Why would it/the controller bother? What is there to gain from taking the time to extract the confession? Why not just kill Eko without all the questions?
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 01:57 AM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Brings a few questions to my mind:Why would the smoke (or the "person" controlling it) need a confession? Why would it/the controller bother? What is there to gain from taking the time to extract the confession? Why not just kill Eko without all the questions?
Hi Filbertsnout, the black smoke is confounding, isn't it? The only thing I know for sure is it's all in the eye of the beholder. Locke saw something beautiful when he looked into "the eye of the island." Eko saw blame and accusations. Maybe it's as simple as the smoke somehow offers second chances, a chance at redemption - all of which Eko ultimately rejected when he reached the decision he had nothing to apologize for. I hope it's more complicated than this, however. Such an un-nuanced judge/jury that flies into lethal tantrums when opposed strikes me as dull.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 02:07 AM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Good morning, Joopers. Happy Thursday.Forget MANDOM! There's a new smell in town. Bruce! http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/other/business/20070108adco2.mov
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 03:19 AM
by: Lightcan (73 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Aug 04, 2006
Hi BG,thanks for replying.You are right. It's hard to understand Smokie at this stage, when it seems we don't have enough clues and we can only speculate. I agree with your point: it's all in the eye of the beholder! It depends on the person's past. The way IT deals with him/her, what dreams, visions the person has. It took the shape of Yemi, and wanted a confession because of Eko.It is all very confusing to deal with dreams and hallucinations in a show based on flashbacks. Very postmodern.Some people believe still that there are two types of entities, dark and light, two types of dreams/visions/hallucinations. Another thought related to Eko. It was said that there is a parallel between Goodwin trying to convert Ana and the monster giving Eko a chance. This would link Benry's group to Smokie (they worship him or they control him or just wanted to save Ana from certain death?)Yes, it has been said that Benry could have sent them to Alcatraz and that bearing might not be enough to get out of the magnet's influence (that makes you go in a big circle and come back to the island) However, the hatch was destroyed, so that raises the question of the snowglobe effect, which on the other hand might be caused by the island and not by the hatch per se. They couldn't stop the 'leak', a consequence of the experiments (so many vague things on this show), they could only discharge it. Was the fail safe a solution for the 'leak'? It seems not. The writers said 'temporarily visible to the outside world', which, related to the invisibility shield - plasma?- , means it reset on its own or because the hatch wasn't controlling the shield, maybe Patchy knows something more... I hope so.The strange thing when he said 'you kept your word and I'll keep mine' (yes he didn't do the deal, Bea did, but because he is higher in command, it is his responsibility?) is he didn't have to say that if he wanted to lie about the bearing and/or finding rescue or not. Maybe he just said everything he said to give the impression that he is trustworthy. A very good con man is like a magician. He distracts your attention and does something you don't notice. I think this is how we should take Benry's words, but it's hard because we don't know what his intention was. It was said also that that boat couldn't have gone too far, doesn't have not enough fuel. And it's not as if at the edge of the snowglobe somebody is going to wait to rescue them at that exit. Even if they are out in the ocean, away from the island, they have very slim chances to survive.Sorry for my confusing little rant that led nowhere and that touched on so many topics - Smokie and his or somebody else's tampering with certain people's subconscious, the hatches, the 'shield', Benry's tricks.I enjoy talking to you.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 05:01 AM
by: zenmaster5280 (420 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 23, 2005
Good morning, Joopers. Happy Thursday.Forget MANDOM! There's a new smell in town. Bruce! http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/other/business/20070108adco2.mov
Good Morning Joopers!Finished The Watchmen. Wow! I heart stories, within stories, within stories.Too funny BG! ROFLMAO with Bruce. Stockpiling it--now there's an idea.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 11:16 AM
by: captainaeon (614 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Dec 16, 2004
Good Morning Joopers!Finished The Watchmen. Wow! I heart stories, within stories, within stories.
I read Chapter 3 last night where Dr Manhattan is experiencing/remembering the past, present and future all at the same time. It was more like listening to music than reading. This book is amazing--it is the only graphic novel ever to win a Hugo award.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 02:02 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Hi BG,thanks for replying.You are right. It's hard to understand Smokie at this stage, when it seems we don't have enough clues and we can only speculate. I agree with your point: it's all in the eye of the beholder! It depends on the person's past. The way IT deals with him/her, what dreams, visions the person has. It took the shape of Yemi, and wanted a confession because of Eko.It is all very confusing to deal with dreams and hallucinations in a show based on flashbacks. Very postmodern....
Hi Lightcan, I like talking to you too. LOL, I feel like I'm trapped in a snow-globe where this dang black smoke is concerned. Sometimes I'll find myself arguing against something, then I'll realize I'm arguing against one of my own ideas - which of course I've forgotten all about. Around and around we go. Is there any reason to think the smoke(s) is consistent in its pattern(s)? It seems to act differently each time we see it. *It yanked the pilot of the cockpit and didn't seem to give him time to confess - that is if the smoke wanted a confession (but we didn't see it except in shadow so who knows)*It appeared to Locke as something beautiful (but we didn't see it so who knows)*It next appeared as a wispy snakey thing and a chunk of it tried to grab Locke and pull him down a hole. Not much time for a confession, there, either. *Then, in the scene with Eko last year the smoke made its debut as a Desk Jet all-in-one scanner-copier-fax machine. No confession required there, either.*Then we began noticing it might be Yemi and who knows who or what else.*Then it showed up most recently as just about everyone Eko has ever known, demanded a confession, went all Chuck Norris when poor Eko didn't confess right, and that was that. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 02:06 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Good Morning Joopers!Finished The Watchmen. Wow! I heart stories, within stories, within stories.Too funny BG! ROFLMAO with Bruce. Stockpiling it--now there's an idea.
Zen!I'm still on the first chapter. I can't wait to get further along. I'm glad you like the ad. It made me laugh like crazy. I love the insanely long painting of the sailing ship - did you notice in the painting it changes from day to night and back to day as Bruce walks along in front of it?
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 02:11 PM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
I read Chapter 3 last night where Dr Manhattan is experiencing/remembering the past, present and future all at the same time. It was more like listening to music than reading. This book is amazing--it is the only graphic novel ever to win a Hugo award.
Hi Captain, I wonder if experiencing/remembering the past, present, and future concomittantly is something Desmond is experiencing? I remember a spoiler that indicated his upcoming epi might get pretty weird. But oh dear, I got almost no reading done last night. Between talking to dear Damon and clever Carlton and watching the political speech, the time just got away.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 02:13 PM
by: Lightcan (73 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Aug 04, 2006
George, give us back Backgammon's posts.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 03:03 PM
by: sweetsayid (131 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 16, 2006
watchmen spoiler spacechapter 3'and the photograph falls from my hand'this chapter was mesmerizing and beautifuli have a feeling that dr. manhattan is going to remove himself from history after all his reflectionimagine if you were experiencing everything all at once you would seem very disconnected from realityend spoiler space
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 03:10 PM
by: captainaeon (614 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Dec 16, 2004
Hi Captain, I wonder if experiencing/remembering the past, present, and future concomittantly is something Desmond is experiencing? I remember a spoiler that indicated his upcoming epi might get pretty weird.
I was thinking along the same lines about Desmond. There are more possibilities coming, but I will not spoil you...
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 03:25 PM
by: zenmaster5280 (420 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 23, 2005
I was thinking along the same lines about Desmond. There are more possibilities coming, but I will not spoil you...
Hi all!Regarding past/present/future I posted this in Carl's Ulimate Decision thread. Its from What the Bleep:"For example, it's a puzzle from the standpoint of the fundamental laws of physics why we should be able to remember the past, and not have the same kind of epistemic access to the future. It's a puzzle from the standpoint of these laws why we should think something like by acting now we can affect the future but not the past. These things-- that we have a different kind of epistemic access to the past and future, that we have a different kind of control by acting now over the future than we do over the past...these things are so fundamental to the way we experience the world...that, that it seems to me, not to be curious about them is to be you know, three-quarters of the way to being dead."So Desmond is not three-quarters of the way to being dead. Yay!
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 11 @ 04:27 PM
by: captainaeon (614 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Dec 16, 2004
Bruce Campbell Alert!!! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0457295/
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 12 @ 01:53 AM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Good morning, Joopers. TGIF!I see we're all finding The Watchmen provocative reading. I'm only in chapter 2 and I'm totally enthralled. This is truly a seminal work. From a review that speaks in superlative generalities and not too spoilerish: On first read, you may find yourself smacked in the face by an awesome ending. Second time through, you’ll wonder how you could have missed all those clues.http://www.grovel.org.uk/watchmen/I'm glad for the three day weekend - I can't wait to devour this book.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 12 @ 01:56 AM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
I was thinking along the same lines about Desmond. There are more possibilities coming, but I will not spoil you...
LOL, Captain, I hope it isn't too difficult for you to keep quiet while the rest of us read the book. You must have a zillion ways to spoil us and I admire your restraint.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 12 @ 01:59 AM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
watchmen spoiler spacechapter 3'and the photograph falls from my hand'this chapter was mesmerizing and beautifuli have a feeling that dr. manhattan is going to remove himself from history after all his reflectionimagine if you were experiencing everything all at once you would seem very disconnected from realityend spoiler space
Hi Sweet, you guys have really whetted my appetite for chapter 3. Maybe I'll take the book to work and try to get in a little reading during lunch, provided my meetings don't run long.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 12 @ 02:07 AM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Hi all!Regarding past/present/future I posted this in Carl's Ulimate Decision thread. Its from What the Bleep:"For example, it's a puzzle from the standpoint of the fundamental laws of physics why we should be able to remember the past, and not have the same kind of epistemic access to the future. It's a puzzle from the standpoint of these laws why we should think something like by acting now we can affect the future but not the past. These things-- that we have a different kind of epistemic access to the past and future, that we have a different kind of control by acting now over the future than we do over the past...these things are so fundamental to the way we experience the world...that, that it seems to me, not to be curious about them is to be you know, three-quarters of the way to being dead."So Desmond is not three-quarters of the way to being dead. Yay!
Zen! Very interesting quote. Why is the subjective experience of time linear? It's disturbing to have such a disconnect between the currently accepted ideas about the laws governing the physical universe and our subjective experience of it. Perhaps the another theory of physics is needed to account for this. I'm sure people much smarter than I are working on it, but for now it is troubling to contemplate.
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Re: JOOP! is now Jupiter pt 13
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Posted: Jan 12 @ 02:08 AM
by: back_gammon (993 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Bruce Campbell Alert!!! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0457295/
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